Post by @raster@retro-gaiden.com
am becoming so despondent at the slopbot invasion in linux, seemingly getting worse weekly [oh linus! 💔], that more & more i ponder a possible #BSD escape route, yet nothing i read anywhere so far gives me any confidence at all that i would be capable of handling all the technical challenges involved. i just want a daily desktop, not a server, & i want it not for a technical challenge at all but simply so i can use my apps to do the stuff i need... which is not at all database or server related in any way. i've just finished perusing a few dozen subreddit threads on the three arguably best known BSDs, & it was nothing but depressing & demoralising
in 2013 when i tired of 20+ years of redmond arseholery & shitfuckery, i discovered linux & was delighted with it, entirely meeting all my needs ever since. now however, with this very same hitherto paradise apparently rushing to sleep with the enemy, it feels like i have no realistic escape option
faaaaaaaaaaaaarque!
#DropbearPooterising #Linux #LinuxWomen #FOSS
#FuckGenerativeAI #FuckSlopbots #AntiAI #NoAI #EscapeFromLinux ? 
#KDELinux | 
#ArchLinux #KDEPlasma
#Kalpa | 
#SparkyLinux | 
#Kinoite #FirefoxNightly #FirefoxSecondSidebarProject #NativeTreeTabsProject 
#Floorp
@MsDropbear42 For a desktop-oriented "distribution" of FreeBSD, try GhostBSD, that is offering also a couple of different desktops than the usual Xfce/Mate.
There is also HelloSystem.
FreeBSD actually is much, much less inclined to include LLMs stuff in the code than many says, if you seek their official statements.
NetBSD has became very popular recently, but is a bit more manual than the other two above.
https://www.ghostbsd.org/
https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/
@raster thx, i appreciate your several informative replies. wrt #GhostBSD, until recently i was feeling this might be an ideal initial escape option for me, given atm i am very unskilled & ignorant of almost all #BSD matters, being merely a Linux hobbyist user. however, this post https://mastodon.sdf.org/@argv_minus_one/117390721260080755 had scared me right off it.
it would be interesting & educational for me, if both you & @argv_minus_one might now discuss this, as it would really assist me [& presumably also other current #penguinistas fretting about the slopification but not knowing enough about BSD to make an informed decision] -- tbh i would love it if now 👻 returned to being a viable candidate for me, but i would need to be comfortable it is not insecure. ta
#DropbearPooterising #Linux #LinuxWomen #FOSS
#FuckGenerativeAI #FuckSlopbots #AntiAI #NoAI
@MsDropbear42 @raster might this completed issue https://github.com/ghostbsd/networkmgr/issues/122 now infer that the hitherto-mentioned [by @argv_minus_one] security concern is now ameliorated? 🤯🤷♀️🤞
That ameliorates the shell injection vulnerabilities, yes. Good progress.
But the GUI still runs as root. 😳 https://github.com/ghostbsd/networkmgr/blob/master/src/networkmgr.desktop
Fixing that would require the program to be split into client and server parts with a well-defined interface between the two, like Linux NetworkManager and the abandoned nmdaemon project.
It'd be a big project, but they really need to do it. The way it works now may or may not be vulnerable, but it has an alarmingly large attack surface.
@argv_minus_one many thanks! so, ok, #ghostbsd must remain still on my rejects list @raster
@MsDropbear42 @argv_minus_one hello again. today i installed the new 👻 , GhostBSD 26.2-R15.1p6, in a #qemu VM, as the Release Notes mentioned they had fixed the bug that made it unbootable in qemu for the previous 26.1. It installed & runs successfully, & i am a bit besotted with it tbh coz it represents for me an easy glide path into #BSD even without me yet knowing enough to be able to install either Open, Free, or Net & then setup a working productive desktop... Ghost has already done all the hard work for me.
however ofc i remain apprehensive given your warning for the earlier version, about its potential root security vulnerability. i don't yet understand how i can diagnose if this new one has the same issue -- pls can you give me some pointers on what i should look for to understand if it is better now or still dangerous?
edit:
oh damn, i think it's still running as root coz it did not ask my password when using the package manager, whose titlebar said it was superuser
#DropbearPooterising #Linux #LinuxWomen #FOSS
#FuckGenerativeAI #FuckSlopbots #AntiAI #NoAI #NoSlopJockeys #EscapeFromLinux #BSD #GhostBSD
@MsDropbear42 @argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org if you mean the package manager as the GUI of pkg, it asks the password once you confirms what package you want install and uninstall if I remember well.
That's not ideal for me neither, but is not unusual, Flatpack does the same, first you order to install and later seek permission.
I don't think there are other GUIs for this on the BSD, because you have not DE distros with those.
I'm not sure how HelloSystem is about this point, but it tries to follow MacOs.
@MsDropbear42 @argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org But if you mean the network applet, there are a lot of ports of the network utilities (like network-manager from Linux) but not really for their desktop applets because I think I have read they are too wired in Linux that do not work outside of it, and nobody has ported them yet.
You can thanks the devs that think portability doesn't matter.
I'm not sure thought if the KDE or LXDE port of FreeBSD has those working, because they are integrated into the DEs.
@MsDropbear42 @argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org A lot of things on FreeBSD lacks of GUI actually because nobody has ported/made them yet, everything you saw on Linux is thought just for it (like Gparted for disks).
I didn't checked how HelloSystem stands about that thought. It replicates MacOsX, but about network managing what I read it must have a gui and a much better security design about permission.
It's designed for a single user, thought, like as I read lacks of a login sceen.
@MsDropbear42 @argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org I could suggest you however to check the basic cli commands, because none of the bsd, and in this regard none of other OS, enjoyed the same attentions that Linux and get the same helps like the GUIs.
And things like AmigaOS or Haiku, they are born with in mind to replicate older systems, not imitate Linux/Win/Mac today.
NetBSD and OpenBSD can set a minimal GUI at installation, but you have to add manually later the DE of your choice.
re wifi config... there's also wpagui (wpa_supplicant_gui) if you look for alternatives for networkmgr.
for pkg management... Octopkg is similar to octopi from Arch Linux (and uses either doas or sudo for eleveting rights on demand)
for xlibre -> xorg... pkg install xorg should replace it.
but yes, what raster says. I helps to look into the CLI/Shell commands. The man pages are quite good. (e.g. if you have trouble with an update a "pkg upgrade -f" from the shell is quite helpful.)
in the end ymmv.
@Tionisla @MsDropbear42 Isn't wpa_supplicant_gui just check the Lan connection, but lacks of controls for it?
@raster@retro-gaiden.com @Tionisla@bsd.cafe @MsDropbear42@infosec.space Iirc, I was able to config my wifi with it as well.
Have to install it though to be sure.
/e: if you click on scan in manage-networks and double click on the wifi network you get into a Edit mode to save the connection, it seems. But don't ask me. Not using it anymore :-D
@Tionisla @MsDropbear42 anyway, learning any BSD is a lot straightforward than deal with any kind of Linux distros.
Linux has a perk to make everything complex in a way or another.
@Tionisla @raster this is a blatantly selfish remark i am about to make 😀 in my case alone, tbh, whatever complexities or difficulties might pertain to wifi in #bsd do not affect me at all, because the scope of my present objective is only my tower pc, not also my laptop. the latter has wifi, but the former does not, so if i ever did manage to run a bsd on it, it would be entirely via ethernet cable, not wifi at all. whether or not that still leaves me vulnerable to a possible #GhostBSD root security issue or not, i still sadly atm do not understand... but presumably my situation should be much simpler than for those who also need wifi?
#DropbearPooterising #Linux #LinuxWomen #FOSS
#FuckGenerativeAI #FuckSlopbots #AntiAI #NoAI #NoSlopJockeys #EscapeFromLinux
@MsDropbear42 @Tionisla Networkmng has need to run root because it has to touch some system files that on FreeBSD are reserved only for the admin, and nobody has written or ported a GUI that integrates with the DE and set up better the permissions on it.
I think you could force to ask the password before open the manager, but vulnerabilities are those things that can bypass it.
@MsDropbear42 @Tionisla The only other option I think is remove Networkmng and manage the network with the standard FreeBSD system utilities, because there isn't else beside what we listed (or at least that I know).
Keep in mind that BSDs never got attention for desktop use for have others spins like GhostBSD and Hellosystem, and other niche systems aren't far from that, expect if they are thought for desktop like Haiku, and usually are reimplementation of older systems.
@MsDropbear42 @Tionisla But talking of the level of risk, somebody has to know your specific ip, and try to access from remote for exploit this kind of vulnerability, and that is more a problem with servers than a desktop user. Or another person has physical access to your machine.
Is easier you could get a cryptolocker instead I think, or your credential stolen from the browser for a dangerous website.
@raster @Tionisla thank you for these latest two posts. i am getting a sinking feeling more & more that in fact i might have NO escape from linux slopbots after all, because i am a desktop user not a server admin, so if i were in fact to replace my present #ArchLinux & #KDELinux with a #BSD, it would have to include a DE, & prolly an old one like MATE that certainly has no ai shit in it, but then if it would have fundamental security compromise due to running the desktop or even just part of it as root, then really i am just trading one bad situation for another, thus nullifying at least in part the point of jumping over. this is becoming a nightmare.
#DropbearPooterising #Linux #LinuxWomen #FOSS
#FuckGenerativeAI #FuckSlopbots #AntiAI #NoAI #NoSlopJockeys #EscapeFromLinux
@MsDropbear42 @Tionisla @argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org Nobody cared for BSDs, and overall for no other OS, for years, and you can thanks the developers that a lot of common stuff on Linux is rooted in its non-standard posix extensions that makes it hard to port these outside it. :P
Open source without portability doesn't make things easier.
@MsDropbear42 @Tionisla Using shell commands requires a really low basic skill, thought. The hard things are: remember what command use, read the included documentations, and remember you aren't on linux. 😆
Commands seems complicated because on Unix-like system, they developed dozen of options for any kind of things you could end to need, but in truth they are linear if you spend short time to read the documentation and see what the options do. And usually you need just few of these.
@MsDropbear42 @Tionisla Like for add programs, on Freebsd is "pkg install *name*.
Remove is "pkg remove *package-name*".
FreeBSD has well-readable config files like in rc.conf where you can set a daemon run or not at start just setting it with "yes/no".
They are more spend few time to pick up the docs and read the basic: in comparison to other linux distros I used/tried, I found Bsds much simpler and lean to use.
@MsDropbear42 @Tionisla Beside, HelloSystem is the only other that I know which has some desktop applets for stuff like network; but it also tries to replicate how old MacOs worked, not the new ones.
Network setup is a tough one, though. It's very platform-specific.
Linux initially copied ifconfig etc from BSD in the 1990s, but ended up deprecating it in favor of Linux's own iproute.
FreeBSD kept ifconfig but extended its syntax somewhat.
OpenBSD has classic ifconfig, but it also has separate configuration files for each network interface, kinda like Linux systemd-networkd.
Are you sure? Desktops don't move very often; their network setup tends to be set once and never changed again. Setting up networking server-style shouldn't be overly inconvenient.
It is, however, very old-fashioned. The FreeBSD docs for setting up networking https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/network/ are pretty similar to how we used to set up Linux networking in the 1990s, before niceties like ifupdown/netplan/systemd-networkd were introduced.