Post by @clacksee@wandering.shop

@clacksee I would consider nextcloud. I use that for calendar, files, photos, the works. I exported Proton Pass to a zip (json file) and imported that JSON file into keepassxc (works perfectly, including TOTP/MFA), and that KeepassXC file is synced via Nextcloud too. For iphone I recommend keepassium to access that file.

VPN: ExpressVPN (which I use) or IVPN (heard about that last week).

I don't know if that would cover everything except email (you have lots of suggestions for that).

@clacksee
I started using proton about five years ago. I was tempted by their password manager, etc., but then got nervous about all eggs in one basket.

Mailbox and runbox are my shortlist. Passwords are covered by keepassxc, need to pick a VPN. Bit of a deadline, my account renews next week...

@mikerspencer
Ooh, yikes. At least I have time to decide. If I were in your shoes, I’d switch to monthly renewal and tell @protonprivacy why your doing it and that you’ll move if they don’t lose the dead weight.

@clacksee
Good shout on monthly, I hadn't thought of that as an option.

It's not going to be quick as I've a few addresses to migrate...
@protonprivacy

@mikerspencer @protonprivacy
Yeah, same. I have two main email accounts but I’ve also got a gazillion aliases. I thought I was being so clever setting those up. But now they’re going to complicate moving.

@clacksee @mikerspencer @protonprivacy for the love of {$deity}, please get yourself a domain and use that for email, so your provider becomes agnostic and irrelevant. Then you can switch at will simply.

@markotway @mikerspencer
Yep. Just done that. Doesn’t solve everything. But does make some things easier.

@protonprivacy

@markotway
I do for some, not all 😅
@clacksee @protonprivacy

@clacksee @mikerspencer
That’s a great call - my annual renewal is next month too.
So disappointed that @protonprivacy is putting AI obsession over security and quality engineering practices, not to mention unacceptable treatment of staff.

@mikerspencer@mastodon.scot @clacksee@wandering.shop
Just checked runbox, as I'm not sure if I ever heard about them before.
They have a great comparison table on their website:
https://runbox.com/blog/2026/09/how-runbox-compares-to-proton-tuta-fastmail-posteo-and-mailbox/

#runbox #EMail

@fasnix @mikerspencer @clacksee I have been using Runbox for probably 11 years now. They were only few downtimes, they communicate well with their users and their helpdesk was always quick to help me fix things

@clacksee @xtaldave In addition to some other email provider, get one of these: https://nextcloud.com/providers/

Should pretty much set you up with all a person needs.

@anotherdaniel@chaos.social
And you could integrate "Zammad" E-Mail-GUI into nextcloud.
(Zammad is a German software company, even if it's posiitoned as a ticket system, it can also be used to use as your regular mail programm.)

@clacksee@wandering.shop @xtaldave@vivaldi.net

@clacksee I hear you. The whole Andy Yen / AI situation is exactly why I'm also pulling out of Proton. A company that built its reputation on privacy and security, now reportedly pushing AI-generated code and mocking employees who wanted to pentest it first — that's a betrayal of everything it stood for.

@clacksee For the email + calendar side, Tuta (formerly Tutanota, German, open-source) is solid: end-to-end encrypted email, calendar, and contacts, all encrypted by default. If you want something broader with a drive too, Infomaniak kSuite is a Swiss alternative — email, calendar, drive, contacts, videoconferencing.

@enki_2931
I’ve been looking at @infomaniak_network . They have almost everything I need. But they do AI too. I don’t want to move and then have to move again.

@clacksee @infomaniak_network Fair concern. From what I've seen, Infomaniak's approach to AI is quite different from Proton's. Euria (their AI assistant) is opt-in — it doesn't scan your emails or data unless you explicitly ask it to help you write something. They've been vocal about being anti-surveillance and pro-privacy from the start, and their whole business model is built on not monetising user data. That said, I can't guarantee they won't change direction in 5 years. Nobody can.

@clacksee @infomaniak_network But right now they seem to be doing the opposite of what Proton is doing — growing slowly, staying independent, no VC money pushing them to scale at all costs.

@clacksee @infomaniak_network Something that's been nagging me about Proton: why is a Swiss company so obsessed with US politics? Their CEO publicly praised Trump's antitrust nominee on X — "Great pick" — then Proton published a statement saying "we must always be politically neutral". Privacy isn't left or right. It's technical. It's universal. You don't need to take a side in American politics to implement end-to-end encryption.

@clacksee @infomaniak_network That post was the crack in the wall for me. Not the AI issue — that came later. But watching a Swiss privacy company look so hard at Washington made me ask: why? What's the angle? Marketing to US users? Positioning for whoever's in power? I don't know. But neutrality isn't something you declare in a press release after making a political post. You practise it. Every day. In every line of code.

@enki_2931 @clacksee

I am with Infomaniak and look for a way out.

They are also into AI

@globcoco True, Infomaniak does use AI, but in a completely different way from Proton: it’s optional, hosted only in Switzerland, and not used for training. If you’d rather avoid it altogether, Tuta has publicly stated that it won’t add cloud-based AI to its email client, and as far as I know the same goes for Tuta Drive. Posteo, as far as I know, doesn’t offer any AI features either. As for cloud storage, it depends on what you need.

@enki_2931

Eurio is not opt out. It is very much present.

And does weird thing (like a blob appears and blocks everything)...

I have been with them for 10 years now.

@globcoco Honestly I might have this wrong, I only use Infomaniak for SwissTransfer and kPaste, nothing that needs an account. I’d been wanting to leave Proton for a while because it kept cosying up to US politics, and when all this blew up I had a read through Infomaniak’s docs. They say Euria is optional, runs in Switzerland and isn’t used for training, and that you can switch the assistant off in Mail and kDrive.

@enki_2931

I use email, calendar, kdrive, I have my domains there and I used to use Kmeet too.

I don't see how Eurio is opt out.

I really feel AI is a big part in their business now so even if they say that (Proton did too), not sure anymore that it is trustworthy

@globcoco No idea if that gets rid of that pop-up though, and after ten years you know it far better than I do. I’m moving my important stuff to Posteo (account’s open, cash goes in the post this afternoon) and I’ve been on Tuta for ages and love it. As far as I know neither has AI, so they might be worth a look if Euria keeps getting in your way.

@globcoco I don’t use a cloud myself, as I run my own NAS at home, and even an older PC can do the job. If you’d rather use a service, Tuta Drive, Filen and Ente Photos (for photos only) are all end-to-end encrypted. Ente’s AI features run only on your device and are optional, and Filen, as far as I know, has none. Everyone’s needs are different, so it’s worth checking what suits yours.

@enki_2931 @clacksee I’ve been seeing a lot of posts saying “oh no not Tuta too!”, none of which say what Tuta did, but I gather they’ve done something to drive people away as well

@enki_2931 @clacksee looks like Tuta has started using LLMs to generate their code. And Fastmail has started enabling “AI” integrations, as well as union-busting.

https://toot.cafe/@baldur/117535217209691890

PS for @protonprivacy, Are you listening? Your customers are bailing. Lose Andy Yen ASAP.

#AskFedi #cybersecurity

@clacksee

Currently I use:

Tuta and Murena for email
NextCloud for cloud and calendar
Privamatic and Tor VPN for hardening and VPN
NextCloud for Passwords

As an FYI Murena actually uses NextCloud, which enable you to have all your documents, passwords, email, photos, calendar in one place and accessible via NextCloud apps and with a free tier available as well.

@protonprivacy

@alexadeswift @clacksee @protonprivacy Tuta has gone full AI slop.

@alexadeswift The sad thing is that if @Tutanota is out of the game we have nothing left.

@iscarlosmolero @alexadeswift No worries, Tuta is not out of the game, and we are engaging here to better understand what's required of us. Thanks for sharing your concerns!

@iscarlosmolero @alexadeswift @Tutanota@mastodon.social

What about Murena?

@clacksee @quixoticgeek not putting my whole life there, but Tutamail? And then your own nextcloud somewhere, and a local password service? (Not sure what exactly you mean by ID)

@clacksee @quixoticgeek (they are here, if you want to chat: @Tutanota )

@Squig @clacksee @quixoticgeek Sounds good, Tuta now also comes with a Nextcloud integration: https://tuta.com/blog/tuta-app-on-nextcloud

@Squig @clacksee @quixoticgeek

No! Tuta loves Gen AI! 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

@kimcrawley @clacksee @quixoticgeek alright, good to know. Source?

@clacksee Their AI assistant (Euria) is opt-in and doesn't touch your data, so it's not the same model as what's happening at Proton. If you want something dead simple and cheap, Posteo is a German provider at €1/month — no personal data required at all.

@enki_2931
That’s the same as where Proton was a year ago, though. Just saying…

@clacksee You can pay in cash at a post office (up to €20 per transaction), by bank transfer, or by card. They offer email, calendar, and contacts, all encryptable if you want (PGP/S-MIME). No native app, but you can pair it with K-9 Mail, Thunderbird, or Evolution without any issues. Ad-free, no tracking, powered by green energy.

@clacksee For passwords and 2FA, I've moved entirely to KeePass (KeePassXC on desktop, KeePassDX on mobile). It handles both passwords and TOTP codes, so I dropped Aegis. I run GrapheneOS on my phone, though it works just as well on stock Android. Vaults are synced locally between my PC and tablet — no cloud dependency. If I make changes while out, everything syncs back when I'm home. Fully local, fully in my control.

@enki_2931 @clacksee KeePass is slopped now. ChiPass is the trustworthy fork of KeePassXC.

@dalias Thanks for the heads-up, I wasn’t aware of this. I’m on Debian 13 and I installed KeePassXC from Flathub (2.8.0), not the Debian package (2.7.10). I’ll check what changed between the two and then decide what to do.

@dalias @enki_2931 @clacksee
@keepassxc
Are you sure about this? KeePass and KeePassXC are different applications.

#keepassXC

@mlippert @enki_2931 @clacksee @keepassxc Oh maybe, I'm not sure. I can't even find an up-to-date KeePass source repo to check. I wasn't aware it was still a thing independent of KeePassXC and other forks.

@mlippert @enki_2931 @clacksee @keepassxc In any case, KeePassXC is definitely slopped.

@dalias @mlippert @enki_2931@mastodon.uno @clacksee @keepassxc Says who? Did you read the contribution policy?

@dalias @enki_2931 @clacksee Just to note, ChiPass has no fixes for any of the latest CVE’s.

@varjolintu @enki_2931 @clacksee Are they actually valid and relevant to its threat model?

Most CVEs now are slop.

@dalias CVE's are slop? Not these ones. Go and check.

@clacksee If you’re looking for #CloudStorage as part of that, then I recommend my employer, #Jottacloud: https://jottacloud.com/en/

@clacksee Get out. Now. Don't wait & see. Remember, OpenAI fired Sam Altman - fat lot of good that did. Just getting rid of Yen won't change the culture he represents & if it wasn't inherent, we wouldn't have to ask them; he'd have been fired long ago.

Changing such a culture is something a business has to prove & that's not going to happen before your next payment.

@jwcph
Spoken like someone with a whole lot of time on his hands.

@clacksee I have not. So far it has taken me two years to de-Google/Meta/etc. & I'm not there yet. What I'm talking about is making the decision for the process to begin. As you say, these services are deeply embedded in our lives & it's hard to untangle that mess - that makes it easy to slip into putting it off, just as long as we can find a way of telling ourselves that the water isn't hot enough yet for us to jump out of the pot. That if we wait, maybe it sorts itself out. But it won't.

@clacksee I had just joined Proton and now I have to find something else again.

@clacksee I use Fastmail. They're not popular with the leet because they exist in major jurisdictions rather than do cross-jurisdiction games to avoid legislation. But they do solid email, calendaring, DNS and some file access (which in turn allows KeepPassXC to be layered on for passwords). They charge money, which I am a little keen on, as then it's clear how they are funded.

Best administration experience of any email provider I have used. Migration, user accounts, client configuration, it's all slick. I particularly like its use of each platform's native client, rather than an cross-platform app, which never really integrates very well.

It's not e2e, but frankly GPG plugins exist.

If you want passwords, calendar, documents, up to 20GB of storage, and more you can use our trade-free Nextcoud at files.trom.tf . We run several such services no strings attached, purely free. We were floating the idea to provide trom.tf email accounts as well but I am afraid people may abuse that service. As for VPN we use RiseUpVPN tromjaro.com/riseupvpn/ for our TROMjaro Linux Distro tromjaro.com/

I hope it helps you!
RE: tromjaro.com/riseupvpn/

@clacksee I'll be migrating off over the next couple of years (I have credit in addition to subscription). My first steps will be to move email to domains I control to keep future switching costs low (not self hosting, just using my own domain), and trying iVPN.

Thankfully my migration to Drive stopped when I realised their Linux client was vapourware.

@noodle
Yeah, you raise an interesting point. I have two main email addresses. Both are currently Proton on the back end, but one is on my domain. The other is a proton-branded email. I think I might start using a personal domain so that when I have to switch in future, it’s less of a hassle.

@clacksee I think you can not evade 'AI' code in any widespread service now. It's becoming a competitive advantage. It's just not the right time for companies to boast about it yet.

@clacksee@wandering.shop some reasonable imo recommendations:
- Mail + Files + Calendar: Fastmail
- Passwords: Bitwarden
- VPN: imo not really needed for 99% of cases but AirVPN

@clacksee A bundled/integrated system is *always* going to be like this. The whole point is making you feel like your whole life is on there so it's hard to move.

@lispi314 @dalias @clacksee Thinking that further - it’s always a good idea to switch, even to something which is similarly bad, as you get to practice switching *away*, and you keep being in power.

@clacksee mailbox.org does everything on your list except VPN.

@clacksee infomaniak is gone full ai too.

@clacksee They don't say don't put all of your eggs into one basket for no reason. Unfortunately, this will also mean more work and less integration between services.

Start with small stuff like password managers, since moving everything at once will be overwhelming.

Email -> Posteo (with Thunderbird)
VPN -> iVPN
Password manager -> Bitwarden or KeePassXC

Not sure about the rest, but I found https://www.privacyguides.org/en/tools/ to be a great resource.

@crookedcuc12 @clacksee Thunderbird is also ("proudly") built upon AI slop nowadays.

@downey

I wasn't aware of that, will keep it in mind and look it up.Thanks!

@clacksee in case you haven't seen already. You can submit a cancellation (and reason) while you've got an active subscription and you'll retain your current status until your renewal date. Just cancelled mine (finishes in April) while I look for alternatives. Wanted to ensure they saw the cancellation and reason immediately.

@markisherwood
I’m putting together a letter for the Proton Foundation right now.

I’m afraid of cancelling as if I do and they oust him, I’d probably forget to uncancel and then I’d lose everything …

@clacksee yeah, can understand that. I did re-read the cancellation policy several times to make sure it wasn't immediate. I've got a bit more time than you to work things out before next renewal which makes it easier.

@clacksee I'm in the same boat, guess that what you get by having all your eggs in the same basket. From now on I'm gonna separate the services, it's a pain but at least next time something lie this happens I don't have to move everything at once.

@clacksee A while ago I compiled a list of options for "de-Googling", annotated with what stuff they offer: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O3QsPC_oo3FzT267CrD9ozA7IsscsEqQfkDmzTI2emc/edit?usp=sharing Perhaps that is also useful for you?

Also really like AlternativeTo for this purpose.

@iris i hope you do see the irony of sharing a document about de-googling on google docs though..

@clacksee

https://alternativeto.net/software/protonmail/?tag=webmail-service

@clacksee

If you want an encrypted email and cloud service, it's going to be hard to find alternatives... if you don't care about encryption, you'll have plenty of alternatives...

@CampbellTaraL @clacksee

> I've used Bitwarden for password management for years and really like it.

FYI, earlier this year they hired an acquisitions specialist CEO, raised prices. About two weeks ago they announced going forward the client code is commercial (no longer open source) licensed.

I recommend putting Bitwarden on your shortlist, the enshittification has already landed.

@nokke @clacksee

Bleh. I'll keep my fingers crossed they can hold off on the BS for another 6 months. We need breathers between major tech upsets!

@CampbellTaraL @clacksee

I did "all this" (what shouty is doing) to get away from Google around 2018 and made sure to spread it all out. This way I could tackle each enshittification on it's own instead of a group like this thread.

...and it's proven valuable, I've had to shuffle things around providers as some of my choices turned to crap. I'm really pulling for Fastmail though, they blog a good game and have been real clear on their commitments to users.

@nokke @CampbellTaraL @clacksee fuck, I just moved to Bitwarden earlier this year. Do you ever feel like you’re trying to run away from a forest fire avoiding shit tech companies?

@lerxst
Also bitwarden is actively using LLMs for development of their products.
@nokke @CampbellTaraL @clacksee

@clacksee

Regarding email/contacts/calendar, I have been more than satisfied running my own domain name with Fastmail for about 8 years now.

The whole "super private email" is snake oil to me - all my email is interacting with businesses (friends now use chat apps).

My life choice: use different services for each need. Hearing chatter about xeovo.com for VPN. Using Keepass for p/w now. LibreOffice for docs. I suggest not moving all your eggs from one basket to another, spread it out.

@clacksee I'm happy with fastmail

@clacksee for email i would suggest using your own domain.
You might want to change provider in the future, and when you have control over your domain, there is no need to keep changing email addresses every time a provider gets enshittified

@clacksee for documents I've been using LibreOffice, but I do have a lot of documents that are Proton native, too. I'm in the same situation.

I'm going to slowly transition to my own domain for email and use a provider like zoho, and move documents to LibreOffice, back them up to a personal server/personal cloud device.

Apparently LibreOffice has an online version now too?? (I just searched this lol) https://marketing.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-online/

@clacksee
https://circumstances.run/@davidgerard/117532332470870709

TL;DR: Tuta is slop-curious, Fastmail is an union-buster.

@clacksee I was not terribly impressed with infomaniak, their customer service was terrible and it took me blocking them at my mail server to get off their spam lists @artemis