Post by @_elena@mastodon.social

@_elena urgh... Is there any way to do #ageverification privately and securely? It doesn't look like it.

Didn't the EU's solution get hacked on day one?

@patrickleavy @_elena there is. Zero knowledge verification. That's the way eu will follow. Now, should they anyway? That's another question

@patrickleavy yes, that's why they're so smitten with W Social, le sigh. They're off the hook for any blame about age verification mishaps

@helpsterTee @_elena yeah I was wondering about that. Something you do in person (post office, library) but wasn't sure how that would translate to online.

I would prefer parents to police this, not governments and big tech.

@patrickleavy@mastodon.social

I would prefer parents to police this, not governments and big tech.

@helpsterTee @patrickleavy but then how would they make money via surveillance capitalism? Age verification would be a big win for Big Tech, as they would know the real identity of the person on their platform and could profit even more from their data...

@_elena @helpsterTee well yes, that is the real reason. Meta lobbied hard for age verification 🤔

@patrickleavy @_elena I think there's a way to do it if you take the verification part offline. I am vehemently against it either way and it doesn't do what they claim it will do (while doing other not cool stuff) but if we must that would be something I advocate for.

It would require significant investment and effort though, and it doesn't serve other interests so chances are slim.

@benroyce @patrickleavy ooooh interesting! thanks Ben

@_elena @patrickleavy

obviously best case scenario: no need for age verification

but if it comes to pass, i think this is the best "how?"

because it results in the easiest, least intrusive form of disclosure

as a bonus, fediverse instances are always in need of funds, and with a cc on file, some friction is removed for donations

big problem:

the data breach potential. a nasty possibility with small hobbyist servers

perhaps there could be third party cc verification service for instances

@benroyce @patrickleavy I had never thought of things this way, so thank you Ben for assuaging some of my fears.

@studybunny reports that in Australia the strict age verification laws didn't apply to the Fediverse, but only Big Tech. Let's hope things stay this way here, too

@_elena @patrickleavy @studybunny

🤞

@_elena@mastodon.social @benroyce @patrickleavy

Here in The Netherlands we have a means to share attributes anonymously. This used to be the IRMA app, but has been renamed to @yivi_privacybydesign@mastodon.nl and works like a charm. I am sure people involved in that project can give details if that can
be rolled out EU wide.
It is a shame too few people use it

@fd0 @yivi_privacybydesign unrelated but I just let out a little scream when I read the instance name! I'm a BIG fan of Little Fedi 😊

anyway, yes, I agree with you that it would be fantastic is something like this could be implemented in place of more privacy-eroding ways

@_elena@mastodon.social @yivi_privacybydesign@mastodon.nl
This solution has been in place for many years and all one's attributes, like e-mail address, age, stay on the phone.

@fd0 @_elena@mastodon.social @yivi_privacybydesign@mastodon.nl

This is brilliant !!!
I think not many people use it because they have not heard about it.
We need to give them more exposure.
I'll start with rigging an automatic post every month on some of my accounts. Hopefully this will help.
I haven't downloaded the app yet, but I hope it works outside the NL as well.

Edit 😰😰
download the free Yivi app, choose a PIN, enter your email, and collect your (Dutch citizen) data via DigiD.
So much for people outside of NL

@francois
The concept is cool, and it works for my tiny country, i know.
Perhaps the Privacy by Design Foundations @yivi_privacybydesign@mastodon.nl / @bjacobs@social.edu.nl could comment on the status of any international use!

@_elena@mastodon.social

@fd0 @_elena @yivi_privacybydesign Looks like the EU rather rolls their own crap that got broken the moment they released it on github (also haven't heard of any news on that wallet for months now - guess feeding people's PII into ~~third party services~~ the dark web is more important than the infrastructure), than to use something preexisting and proven. I've heard of yivi a couple of times and it would be nice to expand that I guess.

@benroyce @patrickleavy @_elena Do you happen to know what they're planning to do in Spain, where credit cards are *really* rare? (& they're much less common in the UK than they are in the US, of course).

@kittylyst @patrickleavy @_elena

well this is all highly speculative. nobody is planning anything, because none of this has come to pass yet

and yes: this path is prejudicial against people who just don't have, or want, a credit card. or people with bad credit who can't get one

maybe they could have another verification channel

but what nobody wants are these awful "scan your passport now look in the camera and rotate your face" extremely intrusive systems

@kittylyst @patrickleavy @_elena

i *think*, even if it comes to pass, it might not be too bad if it's like how bluesky demands proof of age:

just enter your birthdate

you don't have to enter your real birthdate, you just have to enter a date. amazingly, i share the same birthday with donald duck 😆

this may be all that is legally required

at this point, everything is speculation

@kittylyst @patrickleavy @_elena

mazo espabilado

@benroyce @patrickleavy @_elena It is *theoretically* a good solution for avoiding having to deal with identification and having to store (and inevitably eventually leak) PII.

In reality, basically every country outside of the US (and Canada?) is not a credit card driven place. Most people only have debit cards in Europe, including the UK. And you can get a debit card at like 16, so that's not sufficient...

@phl @patrickleavy @_elena

good point. i'm getting some education here

@argv_minus_one @patrickleavy @_elena

no argument. i'm just looking for solutions. but as others have said, credit cards are rarer in europe. so that is a point of education for me as an american and paints this scheme as less workable than i first thought

@zelgaav @patrickleavy @_elena

i agree on the first point. the scarcity of people with credit cards destroys the entire scheme

but i disagree on second point. it's just a bureaucratic hoop to jump through. yes, it doesn't work in terms of satisfying the requirement in terms of sincere functionality. who cares. we only care about making the government go the fuck away

@_elena It's a catastrophe and will accomplish nothing except empower the police state

@stefanfrede thank you! I love @gavinkarlmeier's podcast and I always use YouTube subtitles/automatic translation to understand it. An additional reason for me to learn German 😅 I've missed the latest episode, so watching ASAP

@dennishorn

@_elena @stefanfrede @dennishorn 😱🥰

@gavinkarlmeier @_elena @dennishorn https://eupolicy.social/@khaleesicodes/117274324718114447

@_elena As far as we know right now (and that is very little!), the EU plans to change it’s way to define “social media” (as they call it: social media plus, lol): apps that use infinite scrolling, for-you-algorithm and excessive push-notifications. so by that the Fediverse would be fine, but some games wouldn’t.

@gavinkarlmeier thank you for the explanation Gavin! I've been really anxious about this, vis-à-vis the Fediverse...

@gavinkarlmeier @_elena They already have a definition of something like Very Big Website which depends on things like number of users and are, in theory, more closely watched for compliance than the rest of the web.

@laguiri @_elena yes, they do, but it seems like this definition won’t get used for their kids act - by now. let’s wait until Thursday.

@_elena Supposedly VDL will also speak about it tomorrow (have your popcorn ready? - they sure are hyping the SOTEU).

According to the Europe Morning Post it will be discussed in the Commission today and Thursday presented by both VDL and Virkkunen. It will apply to socials, gaming and AI.

Unless something leaks my guess is we just have to wait. The ambiguity may also be strategic for a long time to come though.

@thisislieven yes, definitely. #WSocial has been hyping the SOTEU livestream: "watch it on W!" ... and then yesterday I found out it's being broadcast everywhere online... YouTube too 😂 🤡

@_elena Both the Commission and Parliament have been hyping it everywhere for weeks now. Even Metsola just did a vid on past SOTEUs. It's absolutely insane.

I actually think it's a good thing to make this a collective European moment but the way it's set up is just disastrous for this. Let's start with the fact that it's 09:00 CET - which is just about the busiest moment for many people. Also, regardless of what you think of VDL she isn't exactly the most charismatic and rousing orator.

Really, W Social is hyping it too? It's the least accessible social media platform there is... I doubt W has a long life.

@_elena

Reuters says "the draft seen by Reuters". So there are no details on any EU website yet detailing what social media (e.g. if the fediverse too?) will be included when they announce it on Thursday. Looks like we have to wait and see...
https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/eu-is-set-propose-ban-social-media-ai-chatbots-under-15s-2026-09-14/

@jon_bon thank you!

@_elena «to be introduced this Thursday» surely in the sense of «to be presented» / «to be proposed», not (yet) in the sense of «to be put into effect». 😅

You could inquire through https://www.asktheeu.org (or file a request according to Regulation 1049/2001 by yourself), but I doubt that would be answered before Thursday.

@_elena Ah, I've learned about AsktheEU.org through https://mastodon.social/@fantafanta/117268080420289611, which I now see you re-tooted, so maybe you already knew about that option. 🙃

@das_g yes, but as you also anticipated, they are extremely slow to respond... like 1-2 months

@_elena Make Parents Responsible Again.

@_elena Will the ever stop using kids as excuse for removing privacy from the Internet?

@Zugschlus < insert obligatory Trojan Horse meme >

😅

@_elena it is an idiocy nonetheless. Yesterday's Revolut incident tells all there is to know about the "safety if IDs onilne.

@DataKnightmare totally! I was amazed by Kevin Mitnick's book "Ghost in the Wires"... and even more amazed that social engineering techniques totally work today, too

@_elena my loyalty to the establishment is flickering down

@_elena Meta is an "expert" in crowd control. So what would their "expert" advice to the neoliberal politicians be?

@_elena Won't help but hurt kids (especially lgbtq+ kids) . Absolute privacy nightmare. Yep completely on track with how things have been going. God forbid we actually penalize the companies that deliberately make addicting apps. Instead let's punish the users. 🤡

@remywhisker @_elena It's by design and it's high time everybody swallow that pill. Politicians and tech oligarchs are all part of the same fraternal orders and secret groups. Their enemy is not each other it's us.

@hankhill787 @remywhisker perfectly said

@_elena

They like corpo web being defacto gate keepers because t&cs allow them to collect nd share data govs cannot.

They will continue to attack and chip away at foss as much as possible to frustrate self hosting if nothing else.

@_elena I thought #EU loves #OpenSource

I guess only as long it can be exploited as a source of free-as-in-beer code.

@_elena maybe @maximilianhenning has some info?

I have a bit, but my colleague Anupriya has more here: https://www.euractiv.com/news/exclusive-von-der-leyen-to-fine-tech-companies-under-kids-act-text/

@_elena Wouldn't all the problems of modern world be solved by simply reversing this rule? Everyone above 15 should not be allowed on internet. Period.

@_elena since Australia's crack-down, it didn't require me to prove my age for access to Mastodon, but SpaceHey was struck from the web. It seems they only care about the Big Guys (Meta, Google, Discord)

@studybunny thank you for letting me know! somewhat reassured by this 🥲

@_elena These politicians should be old enough to remember Stasi, so I can only assume that is their goal.

@_elena @wellingtonrock

besides collecting ID directly to government enforcing abuse of citizens via surveillance, data leak and surveillance capitalism?

Not much. Although they should allow confirmation by a trusted in between where individual privacy is valued such as the device platform. Or parental controls.

It used to be a non issue, as one had to be of legal age to have a credit card. And banks at least at one point valued privacy.